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You are here: Home The FreeThink Blog Archive 2007 August 06 On (Communal) Liberty?

On (Communal) Liberty?

by Douglas Dowell last modified Monday, 6 Aug, 2007 08:05

In today’s Guardian, Roy Hattersley takes John Stuart Mill and the Liberal Democrats to task (‘Liberty is not what it was’) and claims that their philosophy is outmoded in the modern age.

He’s arguing with something of a caricature of Mill, though – in saying that “He would have rejected outright a more positive view of liberty since it required the freedoms of the few to be constrained in order to protect the freedoms of the many,” he ignores Mill’s willingness to support the requirement for children to be education, for example.  Mill actually extended the idea of harm to others to neglecting to develop a child’s mental faculties!  The very idea of the ‘harm principle’ implies that the only reason freedoms (of the few or the many) can be constrained is precisely to protect the freedoms of others.

Hattersley is correct that specific judgments (disputes over tobacco smoke are probably a reasonable example) made on particular issues may be different in 2007 from the nineteenth century, but this does not necessarily invalidate the broader framework of Mill’s thinking.

An attachment to liberty remains profoundly relevant today – when the Times has David Davis calling for the banning of Hizb-ut-Tahrir primarily on the basis of their opinions (‘The wrong voice for Muslim Britain’), for instance, people who can advocate freedom of expression from a principled position are sorely needed – and they’re likely to know their John Stuart Mill.  Liberalism has drawn on other strands of thought, as Hattersley acknowledges to some extent – but broader notions of freedom enhance and build upon the original insight rather than contradict it.

It ever was thus

Posted by Tristan Mills at Monday, 6 Aug, 2007 10:44
The opponents of liberty and freedom always seek to undermine it by redefining or 'updating' it.

Mussolini did this, claiming that freedom can only come within the confines of his fascist state.

Plato, no doubt, would have claimed that freedom means freedom for the state to act for its own good.

Perhaps freedom means submitting to the state to allow it to make the best decisions for you?

The enemies of freedom will always argue in such doublespeak. It is up to the defenders of liberty to show what they really mean.

Re: It ever was thus

Posted by owen swindale at Thursday, 9 Aug, 2007 18:39
The opponents of liberty and freedom always seek to undermine it by redefining or 'updating' it.



Mussolini did this, claiming that freedom can only come within the confines of his fascist state.



Plato, no doubt, would have claimed that freedom means freedom for the state to act for its own good.



Perhaps freedom means submitting to the state to allow it to make the best decisions for you?



The enemies of freedom will always argue in such doublespeak. It is up to the defenders of liberty to show what they really mean.

Yes; of course.   But we dont, do we?   And we wont as long as the words <freedom> <liberty> are used in an unthinking cliched way.  Plato (or likely Socrates) taught us to examine language: it is a shifty bit of land to stand an argument on.  There is a lot of froth about the discourse I find in this forum - it want taking down and rejigging.  The great advantage for the religious sects is that they know what they are quarreling about, and we have forgotten.  Dont dare use <doublespeak> unless you are sure you know to what you refer - Now, <submitting to the state  to make the best decisions >  Of course we must .   How otherwise are we to decide where the drains go?    It is quite possibl;e to have personal freedom inside a tyranny - if that does not involve being seditious -  our idea of freedom is jejune and ineffectual, because we have lost all notions of a proper way to live.  and that way has proved possible  enough in the past.   Come on !   let us show a little rigor and breadth.   I want to start a debate on work, one of the roots of a better life, and what follows will fill a lot of columns.   Most of us are being wasted, and most of our problems stem there. RUSKIN
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